Code of Conduct

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
23 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Code of Conduct

dylan
Administrator
This is no huge change, because generally SLUG people are decent folks
-- but as a group it's important we have a published code of conduct. So
I've been adapting an existing code of conduct to our needs. It is
available on github:

https://github.com/suncoastlug/code-conduct/blob/master/code-of-conduct.md

Feel free to discuss. :-)

--
Dylan William Hardison [hidden email]


_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Code of Conduct

Paul M Foster
On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 10:33:49AM -0400, Dylan William Hardison wrote:

> This is no huge change, because generally SLUG people are decent folks
> -- but as a group it's important we have a published code of conduct. So
> I've been adapting an existing code of conduct to our needs. It is
> available on github:
>
> https://github.com/suncoastlug/code-conduct/blob/master/code-of-conduct.md
>
> Feel free to discuss. :-)

I sympathize with efforts in the direction of getting people to act in
civil ways. There's entirely too much brutish conduct on the internet
(though it appears your proposal applies almost exclusively to live
events). The rules for the mailing lists were written with this idea in
mind.

However, we're living in an age where things which people would simply
have shrugged off in earlier eras are painted as though they are the
largest transgressions on Earth. In other words, people are way too
thin-skinned these days. The old adage about sticks and stones is true.
Words can't hurt you unless you allow them to. And imbecillic conduct
always says more about the actor than the target.

One thing in particular concerns me: Bill says something "offensive" to
Sam. But offensive according to whom? Was it really rude, or is Sam
simply excessively sensitive? Who decides? And how far are we willing to
go to avoid Sam's excessively sensitive personality? Perhaps Sam needs
to grow up and develop a thicker skin.

Some things are clear. Profanity is generally clear-cut and unwanted in
normal adult venues. Political and religious slurs are likewise usually
obvious (though I think we need to be vigilant about the hyper-sensitive
here as well). Sexual "humor" is more vague as a target.  Men and women
have been making jokes about each other for thousands of years (for good
reason on both sides) and we've all lived through it okay. There is a
point where a sexual joke takes on a cruel or more serious tone, but
where is it? We each define that for ourselves, and it's hard to define
an absolute standard about it.

There is such a thing as "good taste" and "bad taste". We each know what
that is for us, but we may not all share the same boundaries as others.
Society has arguably become more coarse in this regard.

Also note that, what is offensive for one may not be for anyone else. In
that case, do we simply continue to allow the tail to wag the dog?

In any case, in the rules as proposed, there is no mention of an
overriding authority and no outline of any appeals process. There is
also no mention of anything like a gradient. It sounds like "one
offense, no matter how small = expulsion". That's a little harsh, I
think.

It's also worth noting that, in our community, we have a lot of very
smart people, but more than the usual helping of people who don't filter
their words and actions well. One can call these things various
"syndromes" and such, but the fact is, we have more than our share of
people who are poor at monitoring what they say and do. An array of
graduated penalties might be a wise idea in light of this fact.

There is also the idea that a simple apology to the offended might heal
any unintended offense.

Just me 2c worth.

Paul


--
Paul M. Foster
http://noferblatz.com
http://quillandmouse.com
_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Code of Conduct

Pamela J. Ashworth-2
Too hard to quote in the regular fashion on a phone but

> Sexual "humor" is more vague as a target.  Men and women
have been making jokes about each other for thousands of years


It would be unusual in a SLUG type venue, wouldn't it? I've never really experienced it anywhere.

Good point about people with filter problems though.


--
Sent from my very first smartphone. The keys are tiny; forgive any terseness.

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul M Foster <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [SLUG] Code of Conduct

On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 10:33:49AM -0400, Dylan William Hardison wrote:

> This is no huge change, because generally SLUG people are decent folks
> -- but as a group it's important we have a published code of conduct. So
> I've been adapting an existing code of conduct to our needs. It is
> available on github:
>
> https://github.com/suncoastlug/code-conduct/blob/master/code-of-conduct.md
>
> Feel free to discuss. :-)

I sympathize with efforts in the direction of getting people to act in
civil ways. There's entirely too much brutish conduct on the internet
(though it appears your proposal applies almost exclusively to live
events). The rules for the mailing lists were written with this idea in
mind.

However, we're living in an age where things which people would simply
have shrugged off in earlier eras are painted as though they are the
largest transgressions on Earth. In other words, people are way too
thin-skinned these days. The old adage about sticks and stones is true.
Words can't hurt you unless you allow them to. And imbecillic conduct
always says more about the actor than the target.

One thing in particular concerns me: Bill says something "offensive" to
Sam. But offensive according to whom? Was it really rude, or is Sam
simply excessively sensitive? Who decides? And how far are we willing to
go to avoid Sam's excessively sensitive personality? Perhaps Sam needs
to grow up and develop a thicker skin.

Some things are clear. Profanity is generally clear-cut and unwanted in
normal adult venues. Political and religious slurs are likewise usually
obvious (though I think we need to be vigilant about the hyper-sensitive
here as well). Sexual "humor" is more vague as a target.  Men and women
have been making jokes about each other for thousands of years (for good
reason on both sides) and we've all lived through it okay. There is a
point where a sexual joke takes on a cruel or more serious tone, but
where is it? We each define that for ourselves, and it's hard to define
an absolute standard about it.

There is such a thing as "good taste" and "bad taste". We each know what
that is for us, but we may not all share the same boundaries as others.
Society has arguably become more coarse in this regard.

Also note that, what is offensive for one may not be for anyone else. In
that case, do we simply continue to allow the tail to wag the dog?

In any case, in the rules as proposed, there is no mention of an
overriding authority and no outline of any appeals process. There is
also no mention of anything like a gradient. It sounds like "one
offense, no matter how small = expulsion". That's a little harsh, I
think.

It's also worth noting that, in our community, we have a lot of very
smart people, but more than the usual helping of people who don't filter
their words and actions well. One can call these things various
"syndromes" and such, but the fact is, we have more than our share of
people who are poor at monitoring what they say and do. An array of
graduated penalties might be a wise idea in light of this fact.

There is also the idea that a simple apology to the offended might heal
any unintended offense.

Just me 2c worth.

Paul


--
Paul M. Foster
http://noferblatz.com
http://quillandmouse.com
_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Code of Conduct

Pete Theisen
In reply to this post by Paul M Foster
On 03/21/2015 04:12 PM, Paul M Foster wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 10:33:49AM -0400, Dylan William Hardison wrote:
>
>> This is no huge change, because generally SLUG people are decent folks
>> -- but as a group it's important we have a published code of conduct. So
>> I've been adapting an existing code of conduct to our needs. It is
>> available on github:
>>
>> https://github.com/suncoastlug/code-conduct/blob/master/code-of-conduct.md
>>
>> Feel free to discuss. :-)
>
> I sympathize with efforts in the direction of getting people to act in
> civil ways. There's entirely too much brutish conduct on the internet
> (though it appears your proposal applies almost exclusively to live
> events). The rules for the mailing lists were written with this idea in
> mind.
>
> However, we're living in an age where things which people would simply
> have shrugged off in earlier eras are painted as though they are the
> largest transgressions on Earth. In other words, people are way too
> thin-skinned these days. The old adage about sticks and stones is true.
> Words can't hurt you unless you allow them to. And imbecillic conduct
> always says more about the actor than the target.
>
> One thing in particular concerns me: Bill says something "offensive" to
> Sam.

For heaven's sake! I miss a couple of meetings and all kinds of gossip
happens! Can't win :-)

Didn't know Bill knew any offensive words . . .
--
Regards,

Pete
https://www.facebook.com/pete.theisen.5
_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Code of Conduct

David Macfarlane
I think Paul made a lot of good points. The whole thing sounds very
subjective at the moment.

I must admit it's been a while since I have been. Do we actually have
female members now? (Is this joke now inappropriate?)

On a serious note, How would we resolve the conflict that arises when you
try to include persons of religions that don't accept homosexuality and
those individuals who identify as homosexual? It seams to me that we are
trying to include cats, dogs, sheep, wolves, lions, tigers and bears and
expect that everyone will get along. When you exclude someone based on who
is offended it seams that whoever is the most numerous will use these rules
to exclude the philosophical minority, instead of achieving the stated goal
of inclusion. (I know one member calls this the intended abuse, so who is
asking for a rule that would allow us to expel members?)

Personally, I don't feel like I have to go around to every gay person and
tell them that they are going to hell, but when you take a step to codify
that behavior I feel that an objection is in order. I'm not advocating for
exclusion of anyone from the group but I know that my beliefs offend
people. As a Christian who believes that G-d's word is true, my existence
occasionally offends people. I am constantly facing pressure to change what
I am unwilling to change in order to be included. I prefer a system that is
more in line with the concept of the constitution where words are held
harmless. Every man should be able to speak his mind. That includes people
I disagree with but I find more and more people are unwilling to extend
that same courtesy.

Has any situation arisen where something like this was needed? If not, I
refer you to Frasier season 8 episode 18 at about the 20 minute mark:
(Available
here on Netflix
<http://www.netflix.com/WiPlayer?movieid=70153412&trkid=13752289&tctx=0,0,c383ffbc5e400ae875abb78944cce33fc6eafd09:ab66c72ae9360259a2cba9c1ec1bd05831e936bc#episodeId=70207139&trackId=200257859>
)

Frasier answers the door and Niles walks in.

Frasier: Niles.

Niles: Hello, Frasier.  I thought we could drive over to wine club together.

Frasier: Actually, I'm thinking about not going.

Niles: Why not?

Frasier: Niles, truth be told, my enthusiasm for the wine club has started
to turn.

Niles: I know what you mean!  It used to be the wine club.  Now it's just
the teasing people club.

Frasier: Then let's not go.

Niles: Well, they'll put our names in the Absent bottle, we'll have to
bring the crackers next time.

Frasier: What if there's no next time?

Niles: What do you mean?

Frasier: Niles, those people don't care about wine.

Niles: Not the way you and I do, no!

Frasier: So what's preventing us from starting a whole new club from
scratch?

Niles: We could really get back to basics!

Frasier: Something that's just about wine!  And a clear constitutional
procedure for enjoying it!

Niles: Yes, only maybe this time the governing body could be bicameral!

Frasier: Well, I don't know, Niles, there is something to be said for the
parliamentary system!

Niles: Well, either way we have to have a strong judiciary to keep it in
check.

Frasier: God, I love wine.


Thank you for your consideration,

     David Macfarlane IV


On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 8:05 PM, Pete Theisen <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On 03/21/2015 04:12 PM, Paul M Foster wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 10:33:49AM -0400, Dylan William Hardison wrote:
>>
>>  This is no huge change, because generally SLUG people are decent folks
>>> -- but as a group it's important we have a published code of conduct. So
>>> I've been adapting an existing code of conduct to our needs. It is
>>> available on github:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/suncoastlug/code-conduct/blob/
>>> master/code-of-conduct.md
>>>
>>> Feel free to discuss. :-)
>>>
>>
>> I sympathize with efforts in the direction of getting people to act in
>> civil ways. There's entirely too much brutish conduct on the internet
>> (though it appears your proposal applies almost exclusively to live
>> events). The rules for the mailing lists were written with this idea in
>> mind.
>>
>> However, we're living in an age where things which people would simply
>> have shrugged off in earlier eras are painted as though they are the
>> largest transgressions on Earth. In other words, people are way too
>> thin-skinned these days. The old adage about sticks and stones is true.
>> Words can't hurt you unless you allow them to. And imbecillic conduct
>> always says more about the actor than the target.
>>
>> One thing in particular concerns me: Bill says something "offensive" to
>> Sam.
>>
>
> For heaven's sake! I miss a couple of meetings and all kinds of gossip
> happens! Can't win :-)
>
> Didn't know Bill knew any offensive words . . .
> --
> Regards,
>
> Pete
> https://www.facebook.com/pete.theisen.5
>
> _______________________________________________
> slug mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
>
_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Code of Conduct

David Macfarlane
Actually, here it is on Youtube
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxfxA_8deCI&t=1243>

On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 10:56 PM, David Macfarlane <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I think Paul made a lot of good points. The whole thing sounds very
> subjective at the moment.
>
> I must admit it's been a while since I have been. Do we actually have
> female members now? (Is this joke now inappropriate?)
>
> On a serious note, How would we resolve the conflict that arises when you
> try to include persons of religions that don't accept homosexuality and
> those individuals who identify as homosexual? It seams to me that we are
> trying to include cats, dogs, sheep, wolves, lions, tigers and bears and
> expect that everyone will get along. When you exclude someone based on who
> is offended it seams that whoever is the most numerous will use these rules
> to exclude the philosophical minority, instead of achieving the stated goal
> of inclusion. (I know one member calls this the intended abuse, so who is
> asking for a rule that would allow us to expel members?)
>
> Personally, I don't feel like I have to go around to every gay person and
> tell them that they are going to hell, but when you take a step to codify
> that behavior I feel that an objection is in order. I'm not advocating for
> exclusion of anyone from the group but I know that my beliefs offend
> people. As a Christian who believes that G-d's word is true, my existence
> occasionally offends people. I am constantly facing pressure to change what
> I am unwilling to change in order to be included. I prefer a system that is
> more in line with the concept of the constitution where words are held
> harmless. Every man should be able to speak his mind. That includes people
> I disagree with but I find more and more people are unwilling to extend
> that same courtesy.
>
> Has any situation arisen where something like this was needed? If not, I
> refer you to Frasier season 8 episode 18 at about the 20 minute mark: (Available
> here on Netflix
> <http://www.netflix.com/WiPlayer?movieid=70153412&trkid=13752289&tctx=0,0,c383ffbc5e400ae875abb78944cce33fc6eafd09:ab66c72ae9360259a2cba9c1ec1bd05831e936bc#episodeId=70207139&trackId=200257859>
> )
>
> Frasier answers the door and Niles walks in.
>
> Frasier: Niles.
>
> Niles: Hello, Frasier.  I thought we could drive over to wine club
> together.
>
> Frasier: Actually, I'm thinking about not going.
>
> Niles: Why not?
>
> Frasier: Niles, truth be told, my enthusiasm for the wine club has started
> to turn.
>
> Niles: I know what you mean!  It used to be the wine club.  Now it's just
> the teasing people club.
>
> Frasier: Then let's not go.
>
> Niles: Well, they'll put our names in the Absent bottle, we'll have to
> bring the crackers next time.
>
> Frasier: What if there's no next time?
>
> Niles: What do you mean?
>
> Frasier: Niles, those people don't care about wine.
>
> Niles: Not the way you and I do, no!
>
> Frasier: So what's preventing us from starting a whole new club from
> scratch?
>
> Niles: We could really get back to basics!
>
> Frasier: Something that's just about wine!  And a clear constitutional
> procedure for enjoying it!
>
> Niles: Yes, only maybe this time the governing body could be bicameral!
>
> Frasier: Well, I don't know, Niles, there is something to be said for the
> parliamentary system!
>
> Niles: Well, either way we have to have a strong judiciary to keep it in
> check.
>
> Frasier: God, I love wine.
>
>
> Thank you for your consideration,
>
>      David Macfarlane IV
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 8:05 PM, Pete Theisen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 03/21/2015 04:12 PM, Paul M Foster wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 10:33:49AM -0400, Dylan William Hardison wrote:
>>>
>>>  This is no huge change, because generally SLUG people are decent folks
>>>> -- but as a group it's important we have a published code of conduct. So
>>>> I've been adapting an existing code of conduct to our needs. It is
>>>> available on github:
>>>>
>>>> https://github.com/suncoastlug/code-conduct/blob/
>>>> master/code-of-conduct.md
>>>>
>>>> Feel free to discuss. :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> I sympathize with efforts in the direction of getting people to act in
>>> civil ways. There's entirely too much brutish conduct on the internet
>>> (though it appears your proposal applies almost exclusively to live
>>> events). The rules for the mailing lists were written with this idea in
>>> mind.
>>>
>>> However, we're living in an age where things which people would simply
>>> have shrugged off in earlier eras are painted as though they are the
>>> largest transgressions on Earth. In other words, people are way too
>>> thin-skinned these days. The old adage about sticks and stones is true.
>>> Words can't hurt you unless you allow them to. And imbecillic conduct
>>> always says more about the actor than the target.
>>>
>>> One thing in particular concerns me: Bill says something "offensive" to
>>> Sam.
>>>
>>
>> For heaven's sake! I miss a couple of meetings and all kinds of gossip
>> happens! Can't win :-)
>>
>> Didn't know Bill knew any offensive words . . .
>> --
>> Regards,
>>
>> Pete
>> https://www.facebook.com/pete.theisen.5
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> slug mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
>>
>
>
_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Code of Conduct

Samuel Elliot
"We have never stopped sin by passing laws; and in the same way, we are not
going to take a great moral ideal and achieve it merely by law." - Dwight
D. Eisenhower

Sam :D

On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 11:02 PM, David Macfarlane <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Actually, here it is on Youtube
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxfxA_8deCI&t=1243>
>
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 10:56 PM, David Macfarlane <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > I think Paul made a lot of good points. The whole thing sounds very
> > subjective at the moment.
> >
> > I must admit it's been a while since I have been. Do we actually have
> > female members now? (Is this joke now inappropriate?)
> >
> > On a serious note, How would we resolve the conflict that arises when you
> > try to include persons of religions that don't accept homosexuality and
> > those individuals who identify as homosexual? It seams to me that we are
> > trying to include cats, dogs, sheep, wolves, lions, tigers and bears and
> > expect that everyone will get along. When you exclude someone based on
> who
> > is offended it seams that whoever is the most numerous will use these
> rules
> > to exclude the philosophical minority, instead of achieving the stated
> goal
> > of inclusion. (I know one member calls this the intended abuse, so who is
> > asking for a rule that would allow us to expel members?)
> >
> > Personally, I don't feel like I have to go around to every gay person and
> > tell them that they are going to hell, but when you take a step to codify
> > that behavior I feel that an objection is in order. I'm not advocating
> for
> > exclusion of anyone from the group but I know that my beliefs offend
> > people. As a Christian who believes that G-d's word is true, my existence
> > occasionally offends people. I am constantly facing pressure to change
> what
> > I am unwilling to change in order to be included. I prefer a system that
> is
> > more in line with the concept of the constitution where words are held
> > harmless. Every man should be able to speak his mind. That includes
> people
> > I disagree with but I find more and more people are unwilling to extend
> > that same courtesy.
> >
> > Has any situation arisen where something like this was needed? If not, I
> > refer you to Frasier season 8 episode 18 at about the 20 minute mark:
> (Available
> > here on Netflix
> > <
> http://www.netflix.com/WiPlayer?movieid=70153412&trkid=13752289&tctx=0,0,c383ffbc5e400ae875abb78944cce33fc6eafd09:ab66c72ae9360259a2cba9c1ec1bd05831e936bc#episodeId=70207139&trackId=200257859
> >
> > )
> >
> > Frasier answers the door and Niles walks in.
> >
> > Frasier: Niles.
> >
> > Niles: Hello, Frasier.  I thought we could drive over to wine club
> > together.
> >
> > Frasier: Actually, I'm thinking about not going.
> >
> > Niles: Why not?
> >
> > Frasier: Niles, truth be told, my enthusiasm for the wine club has
> started
> > to turn.
> >
> > Niles: I know what you mean!  It used to be the wine club.  Now it's just
> > the teasing people club.
> >
> > Frasier: Then let's not go.
> >
> > Niles: Well, they'll put our names in the Absent bottle, we'll have to
> > bring the crackers next time.
> >
> > Frasier: What if there's no next time?
> >
> > Niles: What do you mean?
> >
> > Frasier: Niles, those people don't care about wine.
> >
> > Niles: Not the way you and I do, no!
> >
> > Frasier: So what's preventing us from starting a whole new club from
> > scratch?
> >
> > Niles: We could really get back to basics!
> >
> > Frasier: Something that's just about wine!  And a clear constitutional
> > procedure for enjoying it!
> >
> > Niles: Yes, only maybe this time the governing body could be bicameral!
> >
> > Frasier: Well, I don't know, Niles, there is something to be said for the
> > parliamentary system!
> >
> > Niles: Well, either way we have to have a strong judiciary to keep it in
> > check.
> >
> > Frasier: God, I love wine.
> >
> >
> > Thank you for your consideration,
> >
> >      David Macfarlane IV
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 8:05 PM, Pete Theisen <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 03/21/2015 04:12 PM, Paul M Foster wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 10:33:49AM -0400, Dylan William Hardison wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  This is no huge change, because generally SLUG people are decent folks
> >>>> -- but as a group it's important we have a published code of conduct.
> So
> >>>> I've been adapting an existing code of conduct to our needs. It is
> >>>> available on github:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://github.com/suncoastlug/code-conduct/blob/
> >>>> master/code-of-conduct.md
> >>>>
> >>>> Feel free to discuss. :-)
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I sympathize with efforts in the direction of getting people to act in
> >>> civil ways. There's entirely too much brutish conduct on the internet
> >>> (though it appears your proposal applies almost exclusively to live
> >>> events). The rules for the mailing lists were written with this idea in
> >>> mind.
> >>>
> >>> However, we're living in an age where things which people would simply
> >>> have shrugged off in earlier eras are painted as though they are the
> >>> largest transgressions on Earth. In other words, people are way too
> >>> thin-skinned these days. The old adage about sticks and stones is true.
> >>> Words can't hurt you unless you allow them to. And imbecillic conduct
> >>> always says more about the actor than the target.
> >>>
> >>> One thing in particular concerns me: Bill says something "offensive" to
> >>> Sam.
> >>>
> >>
> >> For heaven's sake! I miss a couple of meetings and all kinds of gossip
> >> happens! Can't win :-)
> >>
> >> Didn't know Bill knew any offensive words . . .
> >> --
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Pete
> >> https://www.facebook.com/pete.theisen.5
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> slug mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
> >>
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> slug mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
>
_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Code of Conduct

Jeff
In reply to this post by dylan
On Sat, 2015-03-21 at 10:33 -0400, Dylan William Hardison wrote:

> -- but as a group it's important we have a published code of conduct.

Just be careful that it does not become something like union rules.
Rules can be manipulated quite easily by someone with an axe to grind. I
once saw a machinist lose his job because he finished his job early and
had a few minutes of free time to burn, so he grabbed a broom and swept
up around his machine. They had a janitorial crew that did nothing but
clean up around machinery. The janitor saw him sweeping and filed a
grievance because a machinist was doing his job.
_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Code of Conduct

Floyd Roberts
Sam uses quotes well. Conceptually rather than defining unknowns, how about
a periodic defrag? - If on a periodic basis there was a way to refresh the
current standards (behavior) buffer to adequately reflect goals of the
organization....? I have been a member for a while but only been able to
participate (?) by keeping up with this list. This response is inspired
because recently my 12 year old daughter and I were both able to take the
linux foundations 101 course and I would like to attend a meeting or so to
talk with folks and help her be smarter with linux than her old man (not a
high bar). I understand it is not a group for little girls and the language
and humor of code folks is also my world. Consider, in doing my very very
small part to encourage more females into the technical world that as a
father/mentor I am quite mindful of unintended consequences. I would love
if there were a way to cherry pick the meetings for one where she might see
women in linux etc....
I do not expect folks to moderate their behaviour for me... Yea
constitution!!! - but those technically focused organizations which
maintain their clear technical focus make it more likely that folks such as
we will buy some of the coffee......

On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Jeff <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, 2015-03-21 at 10:33 -0400, Dylan William Hardison wrote:
>
> > -- but as a group it's important we have a published code of conduct.
>
> Just be careful that it does not become something like union rules.
> Rules can be manipulated quite easily by someone with an axe to grind. I
> once saw a machinist lose his job because he finished his job early and
> had a few minutes of free time to burn, so he grabbed a broom and swept
> up around his machine. They had a janitorial crew that did nothing but
> clean up around machinery. The janitor saw him sweeping and filed a
> grievance because a machinist was doing his job.
> _______________________________________________
> slug mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
>
_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Code of Conduct Misonceptions (was: Code of Conduct)

dylan
Administrator
In reply to this post by dylan
I'll be making a few other replies to address specific issues, but there
seems to be some confusion about what is meant by code of conduct, why
we need to adopt one, and what that means.

1) We're not adopting a code of conduct as a *reaction* to anything.
There hasn't been any event to trigger this. That's good, and something
we can be proud of as a group.

Having a code of conduct is largely an external communication. It sends
a message that we will not tolerate harassment at SLUG meetings.

2) Regarding the code of conduct and incompatible religious or social
beliefs:

We have Athiests, Buddhists, Christians, Discordians, Jews, Muslims,
Pagans, Pastafarians,  Sub-Geniuses, and once a Zoroastrian. The
expected behavior for each of these persons is the same, and should be
within parameters for any religion or natural philosophy:

>    * Be considerate, respectful, and collaborative.
>    * Refrain from demeaning, discriminatory or harassing behavior and speech.
>    * Be mindful of your surroundings and of your fellow participants.
 >   * Alert meeting organizers if you notice a dangerous situation or someone in distress.

A discussion of religion or philosophy is outside the scope of both the
SLUG list and meetings.

3) Some people are incapable of behaving within normal parameters, and
"offensive" is subjective.

This is true, and if the rules were to be applied by robots with no
understanding of human emotion or nuance, there could be a problem. But
what the code actually does is to provide a communication protocol to
handling situations, should they arise. I think I'm far more likely to
be Mr. Rogers than Judge Dredd (although, see my later movie reference).

As for those that are not neurotypical:
This code is quite useful for the Autistic or those with other
syndromes. It spells out broad examples of unacceptable behavior.

> Unacceptable behaviors include: intimidating, harassing, abusive, discriminatory, derogatory or demeaning conduct by any
> attendees. All meeting venues may be shared with members of the public; please be respectful to all patrons of these locations.

> Harassment includes: offensive verbal comments related to gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, disability; inappropriate use
> of nudity and/or sexual images (including presentation slides); deliberate intimidation, stalking or following; harassing
> photography or recording; sustained disruption of talks or other events; inappropriate physical contact, and unwelcome sexual attention.

4) As for manipulating the rules for personal benefit -- try that with a
group of programmers. Go ahead, try it. The result will be amusing (but
not for you).

Finally, informally the rules are "be nice". But for the wider world, we
need to spell things out. This is that.
_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Code of Conduct Misonceptions (was: Code of Conduct)

Samuel Elliot
Dylan,

The problem is always going to be interpretive.  Levels of anything is
subjective, and I think the point was merely addressed to consider the
outcome.  Inflicting rules on others to instill morals is difficult at
best, perceived definitions verses intended will cause unintended
misbehavior, if not an opportunity to be trolled.

A code of conduct to impress the outliers does more to train the monkeys
within.  Regardless of personal upbringing, views well differ, and as long
as we use the "rules" as a guideline and not a firing squad that's fine, we
will still need to provide a jury of peers to pass judgment.  Any dictator,
self imposed our not, usually thinks that there judgment is infallible,
careful if ones own impartiality and perception.
On Mar 22, 2015 4:15 PM, "Dylan William Hardison" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I'll be making a few other replies to address specific issues, but there
> seems to be some confusion about what is meant by code of conduct, why
> we need to adopt one, and what that means.
>
> 1) We're not adopting a code of conduct as a *reaction* to anything.
> There hasn't been any event to trigger this. That's good, and something
> we can be proud of as a group.
>
> Having a code of conduct is largely an external communication. It sends
> a message that we will not tolerate harassment at SLUG meetings.
>
> 2) Regarding the code of conduct and incompatible religious or social
> beliefs:
>
> We have Athiests, Buddhists, Christians, Discordians, Jews, Muslims,
> Pagans, Pastafarians,  Sub-Geniuses, and once a Zoroastrian. The
> expected behavior for each of these persons is the same, and should be
> within parameters for any religion or natural philosophy:
>
> >    * Be considerate, respectful, and collaborative.
> >    * Refrain from demeaning, discriminatory or harassing behavior and
> speech.
> >    * Be mindful of your surroundings and of your fellow participants.
>  >   * Alert meeting organizers if you notice a dangerous situation or
> someone in distress.
>
> A discussion of religion or philosophy is outside the scope of both the
> SLUG list and meetings.
>
> 3) Some people are incapable of behaving within normal parameters, and
> "offensive" is subjective.
>
> This is true, and if the rules were to be applied by robots with no
> understanding of human emotion or nuance, there could be a problem. But
> what the code actually does is to provide a communication protocol to
> handling situations, should they arise. I think I'm far more likely to
> be Mr. Rogers than Judge Dredd (although, see my later movie reference).
>
> As for those that are not neurotypical:
> This code is quite useful for the Autistic or those with other
> syndromes. It spells out broad examples of unacceptable behavior.
>
> > Unacceptable behaviors include: intimidating, harassing, abusive,
> discriminatory, derogatory or demeaning conduct by any
> > attendees. All meeting venues may be shared with members of the public;
> please be respectful to all patrons of these locations.
>
> > Harassment includes: offensive verbal comments related to gender, sexual
> orientation, race, religion, disability; inappropriate use
> > of nudity and/or sexual images (including presentation slides);
> deliberate intimidation, stalking or following; harassing
> > photography or recording; sustained disruption of talks or other events;
> inappropriate physical contact, and unwelcome sexual attention.
>
> 4) As for manipulating the rules for personal benefit -- try that with a
> group of programmers. Go ahead, try it. The result will be amusing (but
> not for you).
>
> Finally, informally the rules are "be nice". But for the wider world, we
> need to spell things out. This is that.
> _______________________________________________
> slug mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
>
_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Women in Engr. and Tech. - was Code of Conduct

Jody Baudoin-2
In reply to this post by Floyd Roberts
On 3/22/2015 1:30 PM, Floyd Roberts wrote:

 >>Consider, in doing my very very
small part to encourage more females into the technical world that as a
father/mentor I am quite mindful of unintended consequences.

You noted what I am going to expand on.

Proceed cautiously before encouraging daughters to enter the Engineering
and technology fields. I would ONLY encourage those that show both
desire and aptitude. Some factions in the world believe otherwise, but I
believe God made men and women to think differently.  The numbers
represented by each gender in a particular employment field may be
reflecting the inner desires common to that gender. (With any
generalization there will be exceptions).


I know of a case close to me WHERE the dad would only pay for college IF
the daughter majored in Engineering.

It was a bad plan.
It did not work out.
It wasted time.
It was an example of trying to force a bad fit.
The dad saw $$,$$$ for the daughter.
The dad did not take into account the daughter's desires.
It saddens me to think that this kind of thing happens.
Imagine if she would have completed her study, and actually worked as an
engineer without the proper desire to do that kind of work.

Jody
_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Code of Conduct Misonceptions (was: Code of Conduct)

Robin Miller
In reply to this post by dylan
On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 4:15 PM, Dylan William Hardison <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I'll be making a few other replies to address specific issues, but there
> seems to be some confusion about what is meant by code of conduct, why
> we need to adopt one, and what that means.
>
> I think this is all too lengthy and too legalistic.


> Finally, informally the rules are "be nice".
>

Or, as I wrote on the SLUG Facebook page, 'Be kind to each other.'

I'm fine with the two word version. That's all we need. Somebody starts
cursing or swinging, we can say, "Be nice, now."

Simpler = better.

My dog says, "Less barking, more wagging."

Same thing.
--
Robin 'Roblimo' Miller
Bradenton, Florida, USA
_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Women in Engr. and Tech. - was Code of Conduct

Robin Miller
In reply to this post by Jody Baudoin-2
On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 6:19 PM, Jody Baudoin <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> I know of a case close to me WHERE the dad would only pay for college IF
> the daughter majored in Engineering.


Bad! And my wife is still miffed at age 62 that her father taught her
brother all kinds of tool-using skills, and shared none of them with the
daughters.

Debbie learns fast and has great hand-eye coordination. It's really sad
that she didn't have a chance to learn "guy stuff" while growing up. Even
shop classes in school were male-only back then. Typing, cooking, and
bookkeeping ('office skills') were the girl classes, while I automatically
got metal shop, wood shop, and drafting.

I don't believe in forcing people to do things they're not suited for.
OTOH, I don't believe at freezing people out of things they *would* be good
at if given a chance.

--
Robin 'Roblimo' Miller
Bradenton, Florida, USA
_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Code of Conduct Misonceptions

Pete Theisen
In reply to this post by dylan
On 03/22/2015 04:15 PM, Dylan William Hardison wrote:

I hope you aren't going to ban falling asleep during your presentation.
Sometimes I even fall asleep reviewing the recording.

Of course, during lent I have been falling asleep in church instead.

> I'll be making a few other replies to address specific issues, but there
> seems to be some confusion about what is meant by code of conduct, why
> we need to adopt one, and what that means.
>
> 1) We're not adopting a code of conduct as a *reaction* to anything.
> There hasn't been any event to trigger this. That's good, and something
> we can be proud of as a group.
>
> Having a code of conduct is largely an external communication. It sends
> a message that we will not tolerate harassment at SLUG meetings.
>
> 2) Regarding the code of conduct and incompatible religious or social
> beliefs:
>
> We have Athiests, Buddhists, Christians, Discordians, Jews, Muslims,
> Pagans, Pastafarians,  Sub-Geniuses, and once a Zoroastrian. The
> expected behavior for each of these persons is the same, and should be
> within parameters for any religion or natural philosophy:
>
>>     * Be considerate, respectful, and collaborative.
>>     * Refrain from demeaning, discriminatory or harassing behavior and speech.
>>     * Be mindful of your surroundings and of your fellow participants.
>   >   * Alert meeting organizers if you notice a dangerous situation or someone in distress.
>
> A discussion of religion or philosophy is outside the scope of both the
> SLUG list and meetings.
>
> 3) Some people are incapable of behaving within normal parameters, and
> "offensive" is subjective.
>
> This is true, and if the rules were to be applied by robots with no
> understanding of human emotion or nuance, there could be a problem. But
> what the code actually does is to provide a communication protocol to
> handling situations, should they arise. I think I'm far more likely to
> be Mr. Rogers than Judge Dredd (although, see my later movie reference).
>
> As for those that are not neurotypical:
> This code is quite useful for the Autistic or those with other
> syndromes. It spells out broad examples of unacceptable behavior.
>
>> Unacceptable behaviors include: intimidating, harassing, abusive, discriminatory, derogatory or demeaning conduct by any
>> attendees. All meeting venues may be shared with members of the public; please be respectful to all patrons of these locations.
>
>> Harassment includes: offensive verbal comments related to gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, disability; inappropriate use
>> of nudity and/or sexual images (including presentation slides); deliberate intimidation, stalking or following; harassing
>> photography or recording; sustained disruption of talks or other events; inappropriate physical contact, and unwelcome sexual attention.
>
> 4) As for manipulating the rules for personal benefit -- try that with a
> group of programmers. Go ahead, try it. The result will be amusing (but
> not for you).
>
> Finally, informally the rules are "be nice". But for the wider world, we
> need to spell things out. This is that.
> _______________________________________________
> slug mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
>


--
Regards,

Pete
https://www.facebook.com/pete.theisen.5
_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Code of Conduct Misonceptions

Art Eaton
  Misonception is one issue...   Misconception is another matter....and
I am really going to enjoy this:

Next, every social organization should (and often must) have a code of
conduct.  Some folks don't like the idea of rules, and these are
invariably folks who have never actually lived anywhere there were not
lots and lots of laws, regulations, and statutes to protect every aspect
of their lives.  They do not understand that the rules of human society
grow ever more complex, arbitrary, and biased the more decentralized
they are.  They forget the days when "Rocky" Wiznoski embodied the law
of their 7th grade recess.  They misconceive the statement "make no
petty laws" to mean that there should not be lots and lots of laws
dealing with every possible nuance of non-beneficial behavior and
promoting every possible nuance of beneficial behavior.  They would like
to say "you are trying to codify morality" (usually at the same time
they are promoting their own agenda in which the customs of their tribe
are being promoted as the laws of nature) when a rule is ACTUALLY
addressing /behavior/, not thoughts.  A Petty Law would not say "you
cannot have fun on Saturday".  It would say "Art specifically cannot
have fun on Saturday".

     A need for a code of conduct for SLUG?  Absolutely.  Since the
greatest ego trip of all is to have no ego, I propose that this code of
conduct be promoted as a measure specifically to curtail my behavior.  
No, you can't change my morality (whatever that is) but you can define
my acceptable behavior in the context of attending SLUG meetings, and
you should.  Let's face it;  I am a real sailor, an intolerant dogmatic
atheist, and a citizen of the Conch Republic (currently under occupation
by the right-wing elements controlling the US armed forces).
     Let me define the issue above:
1.  I have great contempt for a large portion of humanity.  I think of
them as being "Earth Humans".  Many of you fall into that category.
2.  I am offended by the crude misogyny and unsophisticated intolerance
of others I have witnessed at SLUG meetings.  MY intolerance is highly
defined, and I find the position of misogynists to be very low ground
indeed.  I dislike suffering the crudity of the other offenders; not for
the content of their thoughts, behaviors and utterances, but simply
because it is so middle-school gauche.
3.  You need protection from me.  I must be curtailed lest I engage in
verbally and publicly disassembling your expressed opinions, lifestyle
and behavior.  I find your crude attempts at crudity to be pitiful.  
Always the same easily snubbed statements, always the same cookie-cutter
(let's call it 'daroga-type') attempts at being clever.  For instance,
did you even understand the above reference? Pitiful.  You see, it is
offensive to me that you didn't even get my snub!

So, Misconceptions of Misonceptions aside, we could easily just label
this as a dictatorial mandate specifically aimed at me, though naturally
it has to apply to everyone equally so it is not deemed a "Petty Law".  
The Anti-Art Act., or Triple A.

Now, do you really want me on the loose and uncontrolled?  Beware, I
shall snub thee yet again.

Would it be nice to turn slug meetings into something more like a social
outreach?  Some folks do.  I for one am willing to abide by rules that
prevent me from ostracizing others and myself (when I feel the need, and
I always feel the need) to promote an environment where more an more of
these disgusting Earth Humans can rise above their lowly beginnings.  It
would be great if folks felt that they could come and even find matters
of interest to them despite their being young, old, female, or from KY
(I mean the STATE, not the Jelly, but the same applies).  If you would
rather promote SLUG as being the same good-old-boy club that used to
beat you up in the school yard while folks like me mocked you from the
side-lines, fine.  Let's just make it a group decision, and not waste
time with all this 'education' and general outreach stuff.  SLUG
meetings should be about The use and promotion of LINUX (and the
glorification of the all-powerful and uncaring Linus Torvalds).
Association for other purposes and discussion should not be part of the
program, and should not fall under the purviews of the program.
   If you DO wish this to be a quality program, well, you should view it
as such.  Most of you should know (and I say /should)/ some basic
tenants of what makes a good program.  It does it's job, and it tries to
prevent unexpected and undesirable behavior.  It does this by scrubbing
and validating user input.  It addresses edge cases.  In fact, most of
the code is all about handling edge cases. Do not ever make the
statement that "simpler is better" around me, unless you will enjoy
advocating a losing position in the ensuing debate.  "Elegant is
better", NOT ever 'simple'.  A code of conduct that is as close to
Azimov's Three Laws of Robotics as is functionally available is nice,
but a little hard to hard-wire into humans.  A code of conduct is a set
of validation tests.  Just testing for bad input is also not enough.  
You must be able to parse the error and take action.  Thus, you also
need by-laws that handle the need to address the input that Bobby Tables
may choose to provide, and provide and administrative function to lock
his account.



_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Women in Engr. and Tech. - was Code of Conduct

Floyd Roberts
In reply to this post by Robin Miller
Its really only a question of how high the social bar is set. If I must
engage in fraternity boy antics to join the ranks of politicians (so that I
can make a meaningful change in the world of course) perhaps I will look in
other fields of professional endeavour. Often times it is the company of
like minded souls which determines our interest and direction. I wonder
though do you think that other women in technical fields would be more
jealous of their statistical uniqueness or more encouraging to help girls
have an easier time with potential barriers than they had?
Maybe its not such a great idea after all....

On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 7:23 PM, Robin Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 6:19 PM, Jody Baudoin <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I know of a case close to me WHERE the dad would only pay for college IF
> > the daughter majored in Engineering.
>
>
> Bad! And my wife is still miffed at age 62 that her father taught her
> brother all kinds of tool-using skills, and shared none of them with the
> daughters.
>
> Debbie learns fast and has great hand-eye coordination. It's really sad
> that she didn't have a chance to learn "guy stuff" while growing up. Even
> shop classes in school were male-only back then. Typing, cooking, and
> bookkeeping ('office skills') were the girl classes, while I automatically
> got metal shop, wood shop, and drafting.
>
> I don't believe in forcing people to do things they're not suited for.
> OTOH, I don't believe at freezing people out of things they *would* be good
> at if given a chance.
>
> --
> Robin 'Roblimo' Miller
> Bradenton, Florida, USA
> _______________________________________________
> slug mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
>
_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Women in Engr. and Tech. - was Code of Conduct

Art Eaton
More important than having individuals that are role models or mentors:  
the unchallengeable knowledge that the course in life you wish to take
is socially acceptable.
-Very few people (mayhap none) actually want to be a pariah or a rebel
until they find out that they have already irrevocably been designated
as such.  I do not speak of 50 y/o men suddenly buying a motorcycle and
donning an imitation outlaw biker jacket as 'rebels'.  They are merely
"Harley Clones", and are operating within a socially acceptable form of
'stolen valor'.

On 3/23/2015 5:26 PM, Floyd Roberts wrote:

> Its really only a question of how high the social bar is set. If I must
> engage in fraternity boy antics to join the ranks of politicians (so that I
> can make a meaningful change in the world of course) perhaps I will look in
> other fields of professional endeavour. Often times it is the company of
> like minded souls which determines our interest and direction. I wonder
> though do you think that other women in technical fields would be more
> jealous of their statistical uniqueness or more encouraging to help girls
> have an easier time with potential barriers than they had?
> Maybe its not such a great idea after all....
>
> On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 7:23 PM, Robin Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 6:19 PM, Jody Baudoin <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I know of a case close to me WHERE the dad would only pay for college IF
>>> the daughter majored in Engineering.
>>
>> Bad! And my wife is still miffed at age 62 that her father taught her
>> brother all kinds of tool-using skills, and shared none of them with the
>> daughters.
>>
>> Debbie learns fast and has great hand-eye coordination. It's really sad
>> that she didn't have a chance to learn "guy stuff" while growing up. Even
>> shop classes in school were male-only back then. Typing, cooking, and
>> bookkeeping ('office skills') were the girl classes, while I automatically
>> got metal shop, wood shop, and drafting.
>>
>> I don't believe in forcing people to do things they're not suited for.
>> OTOH, I don't believe at freezing people out of things they *would* be good
>> at if given a chance.
>>
>> --
>> Robin 'Roblimo' Miller
>> Bradenton, Florida, USA
>> _______________________________________________
>> slug mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
>>
> _______________________________________________
> slug mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
>
_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Women in Engr. and Tech. - was Code of Conduct

Floyd Roberts
So you think the Harley is out ? Maybe without the Jacket?

On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Art Eaton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> More important than having individuals that are role models or mentors:
> the unchallengeable knowledge that the course in life you wish to take is
> socially acceptable.
> -Very few people (mayhap none) actually want to be a pariah or a rebel
> until they find out that they have already irrevocably been designated as
> such.  I do not speak of 50 y/o men suddenly buying a motorcycle and
> donning an imitation outlaw biker jacket as 'rebels'.  They are merely
> "Harley Clones", and are operating within a socially acceptable form of
> 'stolen valor'.
>
>
> On 3/23/2015 5:26 PM, Floyd Roberts wrote:
>
>> Its really only a question of how high the social bar is set. If I must
>> engage in fraternity boy antics to join the ranks of politicians (so that
>> I
>> can make a meaningful change in the world of course) perhaps I will look
>> in
>> other fields of professional endeavour. Often times it is the company of
>> like minded souls which determines our interest and direction. I wonder
>> though do you think that other women in technical fields would be more
>> jealous of their statistical uniqueness or more encouraging to help girls
>> have an easier time with potential barriers than they had?
>> Maybe its not such a great idea after all....
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 7:23 PM, Robin Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 6:19 PM, Jody Baudoin <
>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I know of a case close to me WHERE the dad would only pay for college IF
>>>> the daughter majored in Engineering.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bad! And my wife is still miffed at age 62 that her father taught her
>>> brother all kinds of tool-using skills, and shared none of them with the
>>> daughters.
>>>
>>> Debbie learns fast and has great hand-eye coordination. It's really sad
>>> that she didn't have a chance to learn "guy stuff" while growing up. Even
>>> shop classes in school were male-only back then. Typing, cooking, and
>>> bookkeeping ('office skills') were the girl classes, while I
>>> automatically
>>> got metal shop, wood shop, and drafting.
>>>
>>> I don't believe in forcing people to do things they're not suited for.
>>> OTOH, I don't believe at freezing people out of things they *would* be
>>> good
>>> at if given a chance.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Robin 'Roblimo' Miller
>>> Bradenton, Florida, USA
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> slug mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>> slug mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
> slug mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
>
_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [SPAM] Re: Women in Engr. and Tech. - was Code of Conduct

Art Eaton
Be a real rebel.  Get an MG Midget with the original engine and dashpot
carburetors.

On 3/24/2015 4:59 PM, Floyd Roberts wrote:

> So you think the Harley is out ? Maybe without the Jacket?
>
> On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Art Eaton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> More important than having individuals that are role models or mentors:
>> the unchallengeable knowledge that the course in life you wish to take is
>> socially acceptable.
>> -Very few people (mayhap none) actually want to be a pariah or a rebel
>> until they find out that they have already irrevocably been designated as
>> such.  I do not speak of 50 y/o men suddenly buying a motorcycle and
>> donning an imitation outlaw biker jacket as 'rebels'.  They are merely
>> "Harley Clones", and are operating within a socially acceptable form of
>> 'stolen valor'.
>>
>>
>> On 3/23/2015 5:26 PM, Floyd Roberts wrote:
>>
>>> Its really only a question of how high the social bar is set. If I must
>>> engage in fraternity boy antics to join the ranks of politicians (so that
>>> I
>>> can make a meaningful change in the world of course) perhaps I will look
>>> in
>>> other fields of professional endeavour. Often times it is the company of
>>> like minded souls which determines our interest and direction. I wonder
>>> though do you think that other women in technical fields would be more
>>> jealous of their statistical uniqueness or more encouraging to help girls
>>> have an easier time with potential barriers than they had?
>>> Maybe its not such a great idea after all....
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 7:23 PM, Robin Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>   On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 6:19 PM, Jody Baudoin <
>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I know of a case close to me WHERE the dad would only pay for college IF
>>>>> the daughter majored in Engineering.
>>>>>
>>>> Bad! And my wife is still miffed at age 62 that her father taught her
>>>> brother all kinds of tool-using skills, and shared none of them with the
>>>> daughters.
>>>>
>>>> Debbie learns fast and has great hand-eye coordination. It's really sad
>>>> that she didn't have a chance to learn "guy stuff" while growing up. Even
>>>> shop classes in school were male-only back then. Typing, cooking, and
>>>> bookkeeping ('office skills') were the girl classes, while I
>>>> automatically
>>>> got metal shop, wood shop, and drafting.
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe in forcing people to do things they're not suited for.
>>>> OTOH, I don't believe at freezing people out of things they *would* be
>>>> good
>>>> at if given a chance.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Robin 'Roblimo' Miller
>>>> Bradenton, Florida, USA
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> slug mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
>>>>
>>>>   _______________________________________________
>>> slug mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>> slug mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
>>
> _______________________________________________
> slug mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
>
_______________________________________________
slug mailing list
[hidden email]
https://www.suncoastlug.org/mailman/listinfo/slug
12